Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:48:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Duane Dewitt <ddewitt@nermal.santarosa.edu>
Subject: Re: Closing Day
Hello there. My name is Duane De Witt and for many days now I have been reading the on-line materials from the colloquium. Though I have been learning languages other than my native tongue for some time, I have only been a student of “language transfer” since last summer’s Cultural University 96 in Copenhagen Denmark. There Cay Dollerup and Henrik Gottlieb introduced me to this extremely interesting yet complicated view of how we communicate with others speaking different languages. May I take this time to say that this forum was well done for an introductory effort and it was quite stimulating to my curiosity about this field of study. Obviously as a newcomer I have many more questions than answers. But I intend to contact many of the participants in this endeavor and hope that you would be willing to help me learn more. Please take this time to ponder all of the potential that has been unleashed with the beginning of this academic adventure. I will make a student’s initial offering to this forum once I have had an opportunity to finish reading the last of the messages. May I ask that you help me to better understand the possiblities for the future by responding to my messages in the future. Thank you for again for this opportunity to learn more from those of you in other areas of the world.
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:10:48 +0001
From: “Joao C. Pijnappel” <jon.avatar@pi.net>
Subject: Re: Closing Day
Dear Sean,
I do fully agree with everything you said. I think that maybe because this is a new media – for me, at least, it is the first time I ever participated in such a colloquium in the net – maybe people felt a bit uneasy and did not use the media in the best way. But I am deeply interested in further colloquiums on translation theory, which I believe is an important and interesting subject for all of us, so please keep me informed about future activities, and thank you very much for this opportunity.
Best regards,
Joao.
***
Joao C. Pijnappel
Sworn translator Dutch-Portuguese
Portuguese/Spanish/English/French/Dutch translator Certified member of the Dutch Association of Translators – NGV <joao@pi.net>
Tel&fax: +31 (0) 30- 2510229
Utrecht, The Netherlands
***
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:31:42 -0500 (EST) From: Anthony Pym <100701.3410@CompuServe.COM> Subject: DJR & AP OUT
To: Transfer <transfer-l@cc.uab.es>
Errors-to: transfer-l-error@cc.uab.es
Date: 13 Mar 97 19:46:20 EST
From: Anthony Pym <100701.3410@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: the colloquium
Doug Robinson writing from Anthony Pym’s house in Calaceite:
Continuing my nomadic journey through Spain, moving from e-mail access to e-mail access as travelers in an earlier day moved from water hole to water hole …
And now the colloquium has come to an end. Or has it? At least according to the schedule it has. I want to thank both Sean for inviting me to participate in it and the 160-odd subscribers for joining the fun. I have enjoyed the colloquium immensely, have learned from it immensely, and hope to make better friends with some of the people I’ve learned to know during these past two weeks. This has been an incredibly fruitful exchange for me, not only because many of you have forced me to rethink my ideas in salutary ways but because the very format of an online colloquium has meant that there have been many more than two “speakers” to propound their ideas.
I also have the feeling that the 160-plus subscribers to transfer-l may well constitute an influential core for a transformed TS community. I’m very interested in watching such a transformation take place–and doing my best to help it happen. I very much hope someone else will organize another such colloquium some month in the near future, and then another, and so on, and that the number of subscribers will keep growing with each new colloquium.
Until then, those of you who aren’t on lantra-l or translat may want to join us there. Also, I have started a list called atsa-l, for American Translation Studies Association, an association that doesn’t yet exist in any formal or legal way, but may one day soon. If you’re interested in joining that list, send a “subscribe atsa-l your name” msg to
listserv@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu
Hope to see you there, or elsewhere!
Doug
ADDENDUM FROM ANTHONY PYM
Ditto, although I would like to have heard from more people; I have sometimes felt like we were four or five men chatting in a bar; I very much miss the reactions I see in wandering eyes and body langauge when speaking with physical people. Despite which, I have learnt from this experiment, of which I hope there will be more.
By the way, it should be obvious that Doug and I can argue about translation (and much else) and still be friends… cooperation transcends difference.
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:23:11 -0500
From: Robert Bononno <rb28@is4.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Closing Day
>Thank you for being with us.
And I’d like to thank Sean for all his time and effort in putting this conference together.
/robert
——————————————————-
Robert Bononno rb28@is4.nyu.edu CIS: 73670,1570
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:34:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: “JUDITH A. INGGS” <098jac@muse.arts.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Closing Day
>Personally, I am pleased with the result; and I hope that all of the other participants will have enjoyed the experience and that it may have stimulated thought on the practice, teaching and theory of translation across disciplinary and experiential lines.
>Thank you for being with us.
>Sean Golden
I’d just like to respond, before the list is finally closed – if it isn’t already. The reason very few people were able to contribute was that it was almost impossible to keep up with the volume of messages. I managed to read all the initial papers and responses but then, as I was trying to do all my other work and teaching, had to resort to saving the messages to file with the intention of looking at them. I simply didn’t have the chance. Is it possible to let people digest what went on and then reopen the discussion briefly? I am absolutely sure that some positive discussion might result from that.
I for one would be very interested in continuing the discussion in a few weeks time.
Judith
Judith Inggs
Graduate School for Translators and Interpreters University of the Witwatersrand
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:52:46 +0000
From: dk209@cam.ac.uk (Dominic Keown)
Subject: Re: Closing Day
>Personally, I am pleased with the result; and I hope that all of the other participants will have enjoyed the experience and that it may have stimulated thought on the practice, teaching and theory of translation across disciplinary and experiential lines.
>Thank you for being with us.
>Sean Golden
>I’d just like to respond, before the list is finally closed – if it isn’t already. The reason very few people were able to contribute was that it was almost impossible to keep up with the volume of messages. I managed to read all the initial papers and responses but then, as I was trying to do all my other work and teaching, had to resort to saving the messages to file with the intention of looking at them. I simply didn’t have the chance. Is it possible to let people digest what went on and then reopen the discussion briefly? I am absolutely sure that some positive discussion might result from that.
>I for one would be very interested in continuing the discussion in a few weeks time.
>Judith Inggs
Graduate School for Translators and Interpreters University of the Witwatersrand
May I endorse totally what Judith says above and thank Sean for organising a thoroughly stimulating debate?
Dominic
…………………..
Dr Dominic Keown
Fitzwilliam College
Cambridge CB3 0DG
Tel. 01223 332018
Fax. 01223 464162
Email. dk209@cam.ac.uk
…………………..
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:15:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Duane Dewitt <ddewitt@nermal.santarosa.edu>
Subject: Day after closing.
On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Robert Bononno wrote:
>>Thank you for being with us.
>And I’d like to thank Sean for all his time and effort in putting this conference together.
>/robert
>——————————————————-
RRobert Bononno rb28@is4.nyu.edu CIS: 73670,1570
Hello. I would like to thank everyone that participated in this unusual forum. The electronic colloquium was much more interesting than I thought that it would be. However, I was overwhelmed by the amount of time needed to catch up and get up to speed with the “people in the know.” As a student of language transfer, or translation studies, for only a short time this was really an “eye-opener”for me to see the possiblities for further discussion. I certainly hope that you will do so. Right now I am finishing up a weekend of studying the materials made available and the thought provoking responses. I will be busy for sometime putting together a cohesive paper about this event to report on it to one of my classes. May I thank you all again for helping me to learn and may I ask you if I might contact you in the future as I pursue this line of study. I am hoping to enter the University of California at Berkeley soon to study more about these subjects. Thanks for your help. Please give me a write back when you can. Sincerely,
Duane De Witt
Box 3068
Santa Rosa,Cal. 95402
(707)575-5549
e-mail ddewitt@nermal.santarosa.edu
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:20:36 +0200 (EET)
From: Deborah D K Ruuskanen <druuskan@cc.helsinki.fi>
Subject: on-line conference Thanks Tony and Doug and
First, apologies if this does not go to the right place. It was annoying that one could not use the “reply” function to go immediately to the colloquium, but had to contantly refer to the address – but that is a minor thing. The major problem was not having enough time to digest things – most of us are right in the middle of our teaching schedules, and in Vaasa, we are in the overlap period when old courses end and new ones begin and I personally am actually lecturing in a classroom 28 hours a week. Hopefully this list will continue for a while. Thanks to the organizers and to Tony and Doug – you may have been having a chat in a pub, but you had a lot of eavesdroppers! As a professional translator more concerned with applied than theoretical linguistics, there were many things I wished to say -the only thing really important though was that, for me, the guiding hand is not a mort-gage of a dead author, but the all to alive hand of my client. And I work within set limits, not the least of which is a time limit – I don’t think anyone mentioned the problem of TIME. I, too, have written and published on this subject, but I’m not going to put my papers on the net – anyone who wants an offprint can contact me off-list.
Regarding translation studies as a separate field, I think the infant became self-sufficient in Vienna with the founding of EST, and there should be no doubt of its validity as a field of academic enquiry. PhDs in Translation Studies have been awarded in Finland for nearly a decade, now.
As to some of the awful cliches bandied about, well, if the translation is female and the translator male (as Tony and Doug seemed to have -perhaps subconsciously- assumed), and no translation can be both faithful and beautiful <shudder, eyes closed in disapprobriation), well, you can turn it around and say that male translators have sometimes been accused of prostituting their art. And besides, for professional translators, sometimes quick and dirty is the only way to go (e.g. the “working texts” for opera singers) – and as Robert Heinlein once said, sometimes the ugly ones are the best in bed. Thanks again guys.
Cheers, Kela
(p.s – how about having the next colloquium in June or early September?) —
Deborah D. Kela Ruuskanen \ You cannot teach a Man anything,
Leankuja 1, FIN-01420 Vantaa \ you can only help him find it druuskan@cc.helsinki.fi \ within himself. Galileo
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:16:01 +0000
From: Deborah D K Ruuskanen <druuskan@cc.helsinki.fi>
(by way of sgolden@cc.uab.es (Sean Golden))
Subject: on-line conference Thanks Tony and Doug and Sean
>As to some of the awful cliches bandied about, well, if the translation
is female and the translator male (as Tony and Doug seemed to have -perhaps subconsciously- assumed), and no translation can be both faithful and beautiful <shudder, eyes closed in disapprobriation), well, you can turn it around and say that male translators have sometimes been accused of prostituting their art. And besides, for professional translators, sometimes quick and dirty is the only way to go (e.g. the “working texts” for opera singers) – and as Robert Heinlein once said, sometimes the ugly ones are the best in bed. Thanks again guys.
Cheers, Kela
Perhaps male sensibility to performance in bed (the male partner’s, that is) is changing with the changing (feminist) times, and that is why the metaphorists now ask whether their performance (translation) is “adequate” or “acceptable”?
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:49:23 +0000
From: Rainer Barczaitis <barczaitis@fuet.uni-hildesheim.de>
Subject: thanks from lurker
Sean,
having just unsubscribed from the colloquium list, I want to thank you for the effort you put into this venture. Even though I did not participate in the discussion, I followed some of the threads, saved a lot of the messages and am looking forward to reading them again when I have more time.
Rainer B.
***************************************************************** Dr. Rainer Barczaitis Universitaet Hildesheim
barczaitis@fuet.uni-hildesheim.de Institut fuer Angewandte
Tel: +49 5121 883-334 Sprachwissenschaft
Fax: +49 5121 83644 Marienburger Platz 22
D-31141 Hildesheim
****************************************************************
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:09:54 -0500
From: Jonathan Hine <jth3e@virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: Closing Day
At 16:59 14/03/97 +0000, you wrote:
>This has been an experiment that we should be able to learn from. I would be very interested in receiving “feedback” from participants that might help us to design future on-line activities better.
============
Sean —
You asked for it. Live colloquia (in physical halls) are often sleepy affairs, sometimes enlivened by an occasional curmudgeon, but often poorly understood because someone mumbles, another gets on his soap-box, while a third repeats the question that was just answered. Sometimes the lingua franca is more shackled than franca for some of the participants. 1. The best description I have for what you achieved with Doug, Anthony and Michael was this: I sat in a room with almost 200 other interested people. Everyone could hear every word that everyone else said. No one was interrupted. And almost all the comments were articulate, well-composed and thoughtfully contributed to the discussion. (Most of us do read the screen before pressing the SEND button.)
2. There is no way you can achieve that kind of clarity and intellectual effectiveness except with the on-line colloquium. Congratulations on passing a historical and incredibly important milestone in the pursuit of knowledge. Scholarly exchange will never be the same, and you proved that we don’t have to be lavishly-funded scientists to enjoy the benefits of technology. 3. I do NOT favor the “chat-room” format, even if you do overcome the technical hurdles. We simply won’t all be equally able to enjoy the format. And I very much appreciated the depth of the postings. A chat room would include less helpful material and I would not want to wade through that. The list-serve format allowed me to download the discussion and read it at my leisure (important when most of the people in the “room” have to come and go to work). I do not mind the one-day delay in seeing the effects. All we have to do is allow the colloquium to run long enough. I think you did that with a ten-day event.
4. You might consider posting a how-to guide of your lessons learned and any helpful feedback. I have been so impressed by what you have done that I have recommended it to dozens of scholars, including social scientists, evaluators, and anthropologists. Let us know (on ATSA-L, LANTRA, FLEFO, etc.) if you do.
5. It was as exciting to watch the colloquium take shape as it was to participate. The apparently “accidental” early opening was a positive feature. Having the presenters post their back-and-forth preparations for their papers can be illuminating and exciting to the audience. 6. By current standards, graphics played a small part, but I recommend you never rely on them in the papers. Although I enjoy the latest browsers here at the University of Virginia, I never did see any of the circles. Fortunately, the texts described them well enough that I did not need the pictures. A planetary colloquium will always include participants who are using telnet and ancient text-based e-mail systems to participate. Re-posting the texts on the list-server was an excellent idea. I would not have been able to read “transferre..” otherwise. For some reason, the link to it was broken when I was perusing the Web site 5-10 March 1997. 7. I thought the thread “listening to the Portuguese” turned out to be entertaining, enlightening, and prophetic of the possibilities of the medium (no pun on Doug’s material here!). It was a marvelous, real-life example of many of the very issues we were discussing! I recommend there always be a lingua franca. Those who wish to post in their favourite tongues should feel free to do so, either providing a translation or synopsis in the lingua franca or inviting a colleague also at the colloquium to provide it. In the latter case, the cooperating participants could agree ahead of time or before the posting to do that. Obviously a “chat room” could accommo
Date this even less easily than your on-line colloquium. On the other hand (OTOH – I know!) we could let events unfold as they did with Haroldo, Joao & Co. The hundreds of us who participated and the thousands we will reach in our excitement owe you a massive debt of gratitude. Personally, I hope to meet you someday, sooner rather than later, to thank you myself. If you come to Virginia for whatever reason, I would appreciate a chance to help make the visit more pleasant.
Thank you,
Jonathan
===================
Jonathan T. Hine Jr., CRA
scriptor@virginia.edu
tradux@aol.com
scriptor@compuserve.com
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/scriptor/ http://poe.acc.virginia.edu/~jth3e/
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:33:50 +0200 (EET)
From: Deborah D K Ruuskanen <druuskan@cc.helsinki.fi>
Subject: male sensitivity
To the unknown person who replied to my comment: Male sensitivity! That used to be an oxymoron <grin>, but yes, that could explain the change in metaphor. That, and an increase in the number of females who became/were/are translators, and probably like me resented the crassness of some of the images. I’ve even thought (pace Venuti) that the whole question of visibility might be the result of the female insistence on losing her INvisibility. If Lawrence is listening in he might want to comment.
Cheers, Kela
—
Deborah D. Kela Ruuskanen \ You cannot teach a Man anything,
Leankuja 1, FIN-01420 Vantaa \ you can only help him find it druuskan@cc.helsinki.fi \ within himself. Galileo
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:50:55 -0500 (EST)
From: vonfloto@aix1.uottawa.ca
Subject: Re: male sensitivity
Regarding Kela’s comment on the ‘visibility’ factor surfacing in translation studies at a time when women were no longer willing to accept their ‘invisible’ status, there is a pretty solid temporal link between burgeoning feminist ideas and burgeoning translation studies. And it wasn’t just feminism but a general demand by marginal groups or outsiders to be seen and heard — from the mid 1970s onwards, I suppose, in different doses and differently effective in the different cultures of the west. Anglo-American culture seems to have been relatively receptive to making things and people visible (cf Canadian euphemism ‘visible minorities’), but it has also welcomed a backlash – entitled ‘political correctness’.
Will this backlash affect TS? How? I’d love to hear what you think.
Luise von Flotow
Univ. of Ottawa
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 15:49:29 +1000 (GMT+1000)
From: E.Valverde@mailbox.uq.oz.au (Estela Valverde)
Subject: Re: male sensitivity
Deborah, I enjoyed your sexual metaphor re translation and your Galileo quote, which by the way applies very accurately both to sex and translation. We discussed it this morning in my DTS honours seminar and it added “some salt” to our class. So that should make you feel more universal! (and visible?)
I think the question of visibility while perhaps prompted by the dissident feminists has indeed been raised more forcefully by men (of course Venuti is the best example). What does it say about our inability to create an oppositional discourse against the law of the father that is not only visible but effective?
Cheers, Estela
Dr. Estela Valverde
Assoc. Prof. in Spanish
Dept of Romance Languages
The University of Queensland
St. Lucia
Qld 4072, AUSTRALIA
Phone: 61 7 3365 2277
Fax: 61 7 3365 2798
E-mail: E.Valverde@mailbox.uq.oz.au (Estela Valverde)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:38:16 +0200
From: ap@astor.urv.es (Anthony Pym)
Subject: Let’s go to Translat!
Nothing to add on male sensitivity, except that Luise’s got it about right: a wider concern with visibility on all levels.
But didn’t Transfer finish? Couldn’t we take these matters and use them to bring Translat back to life?
Best,
Anthony
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:44:20 +0200
From: ap@astor.urv.es (Anthony Pym)
Subject: Translator-training programs
Well, since Transfer still seems to be working, here’s a general call for help:
>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:03:12 +0200
>Reply-To: translat@wugate.wustl.edu
>Sender: owner-translat@wugate.wustl.edu From: ap@astor.urv.es (Anthony Pym)
>To: translat@wugate.wustl.edu
>Subject: Translator-training programs
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>REQUEST FOR UP
DATED INFORMATION ON TRANSLATOR TRAINING
>I am looking for people able to confirm or up
Date the information I have on institutions for the training of translators and interpreters. This is for a world-wide survey to be published as part of the De Gruyter encyclopaedia of translation studies.
>If you can help me in this regard, or if you know of people or institutions with complete information on training programmes, please drop a line.
>I promise to circulate on Translat all the information I receive.
>(‘Up
Dated’ here means since 1994, which is when Monique Caminade and I did our last survey.)
>Many thanks,
>Anthony Pym
I’m particularly interested in:
1. Institutions where there are two ‘A’ languages (as in Barcelona). 2. Courses in community interpreting.
3. The political and economic reasons underlying the development of translator-training programmes in each country (especially in places like South Africa).
4. The existence of national accreditation authorities like the Australian NAATI.
(Note that I use ‘translation’ as a superordinate for I/T, T&I.)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:16:28 +0000
From: Deborah D K Ruuskanen <druuskan@cc.helsinki.fi>
(by way of sgolden@cc.uab.es (Sean Golden))
Subject: male sensitivity
>To the unknown person who replied to my comment: Male sensitivity! That
I am the unknown person who replied to your comment. The signature function must not have worked when I sent that message. As I recall, the famous French comment about the fidelity of translations was specifically an insult directed against a specific translator–saying that his translations were like his wife, beautiful but unfaithful. That obviously does not change the sexist nature of the metaphor (or the insult).
Sean Golden
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:27:59 +0000
From: vonfloto@aix1.uottawa.ca (by way of sgolden@cc.uab.es (Sean Golden))
Subject: Re: male sensitivity
>Regarding Kela’s comment on the ‘visibility’ factor surfacing in
translation studies at a time when women were no longer willing to accept their ‘invisible’ status, there is a pretty solid temporal link between burgeoning feminist ideas and burgeoning translation studies. And it wasn’t just feminism but a general demand by marginal groups or outsiders to be seen and heard — from the mid 1970s onwards, I suppose, in different doses and differently effective in the different cultures of the west. Anglo-American culture seems to have been relatively receptive to making things and people visible (cf Canadian euphemism ‘visible minorities’), but it has also welcomed a backlash – entitled ‘political correctness’.
Were we to do a sociological study of translator training programmes around the world, would we find, as is the case in Spain, a very large majority of women, both among teachers and among students? Would this explain part of the new sensitivity? (Ten years ago our student body was about 80% women; now it is 95% women–as a result of the university entrance exams, on which women score higher, and the “numerus clausus” which limits the number of students who can enter. In Spain, except in the engineering degree courses, women are currently the majority in every other degree programme. That has happened in other European countries as well–causing a real backlash in some cases (e.g. the UK), as the male power structure discovers that its sons are being squeezed out by this selection process…)
>Will this backlash affect TS? How? I’d love to hear what you think.
Personally, I think that the translator should not abdicate on political and ethical matters. Political correctness has not taken hold (so far) in Spain, although it is talked about. In Catalonia it has been quite effectively parodied by the translations by a leading iconoclastic writer (Quim Monzo) of parodies of “politically correct” children’s stories.
Sean Golden
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:30:49 +0000
From: ap@astor.urv.es (Anthony Pym) (by way of sgolden@cc.uab.es (Sean Golden))
Subject: Let’s go to Translat!
>Nothing to add on male sensitivity, except that Luise’s got it about
right: a wider concern with visibility on all levels.
>But didn’t Transfer finish? Couldn’t we take these matters and use them
to bring Translat back to life?
>Anthony
If this is about to turn into a “thread” then we should take it to translat and not continue on transfer. If it is about to turn into a “thread” that might indicate that it could be a good topic for a fututre colloquium?
Sean Golden
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:55:23 +0000
From: sgolden@cc.uab.es (Sean Golden)
Subject: Post-Colloquium
Having let a few days go by to see whether or not last minute postings would arrive, and seeing that the messages that are now arriving could develop into a new discussion. I second the proposal by Anthony Pym that this new discussion move to TRANSLAT, at least for the time being.
I will be closing down TRANSFER-L as of 21 March, and I will post the messages that have arrived by that
Date on a “Post-Colloquium” Web page at the on-line colloquium site. I will leave the on-line colloquium site on-line for a longer period of time, and will eventually store it somewhere else.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has replied to me personally with their kind words about the experiment and with their helpful suggestions for the future.
Sean Golden, Dean, Facultat de Traduccio Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona
08193 Bellaterra, BARCELONA, Spain
Tel: 34 3 5811374 FAX: 34 3 5811037
e-mail: sgolden@cc.uab.es
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:14:17 +0200
From: ap@astor.urv.es (Anthony Pym)
Subject: Translat
Could someone please remind people how to get onto Translat?
Typically, I’ve lost the how-to-subscribe info.
Anthony
>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:57:46 -0400
>From: Denise Nevo <Denise.Nevo@MSVU.Ca>
>Subject: Re: Translat – Reply
>To subscribe to Translat:
>send message to: Listproc@wugate.wustl.edu
>with the following message: subscribe TRANSLAT <firstname> <lastname>
>Denise Nevo
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:55:05 +0000
From: iuts2@cc.uab.es (Sean Golden)
Subject: Re: male sensitivity
Catching the tail end of the transfer-l discussion on the fly here, on brief stops between lectures at Spanish TS programs …
Sean wrote in response to Deborah:
>As I recall, the famous
>French comment about the fidelity of translations was specifically an insult directed against a specific translator–saying that his translations were like his wife, beautiful but unfaithful.
I hadn’t heard that it was a reference to a specific woman, but who knows, it may well have been. And the aphorism has been attributed to about a million different insecure males, the first being Gilles Menage in the 1660s, referring to the very free translations of Nicolas Perrot d’Ablancourt from the Greek and Latin. Menage invented the phrase les belles infideles, which Susanne Lotbiniere-Harwood alluded to rebelliously in her Re-Belle et Infidele; other people, later, reframed it as “translation is like a woman; the more beautiful she is, the less likely she is to be faithful.”
>That obviously does not
>change the sexist nature of the metaphor (or the insult).
No indeed. And I think it’s fascinating to explore the metaphor’s connections with male insecurity. Lori Chamberlain wrote the classic feminist analysis of it in “Gender and the Metaphorics of Translation,” in connection with Roscommon’s pronouncements on translations as women from the same era (the 1684 “Essay on Translated Verse”). In my forthcoming textbook Becoming a Translator I briefly introduce feminist approaches to translation and devote an exercise at the end of that chapter to this question of les belles infideles, quoting Chamberlain on Menage and then asking students to explore their own attitudes about female AND male beauty and sexual fidelity in relation to their attitudes about translation. I’m assuming too that an inclination to see translation in terms of a zero-sum game between feminine beauty and fidelity will correlate with male insecurity; and pursuing the metaphor and its implications across gender lines may generate some other interesting material as well. Can we imagine female insecurity producing aphorisms like “Translations are like men: all the good-looking ones are gay,” or “the better they look, the more inclined they are to wander,” or some such?
Personally I think the obsession with beauty and fidelity is a little sick in both arenas, sex and translation. But still interesting to explore in a sociological or anthropological way.
Doug
PS Sorry about continuing the thread here on a supposedly defunct list. My subscription to translat is back home, in my olemiss acct, which I haven’t been able to download mail from here in Spain–and as I’m going home in a few days, I’m not inclined to resubscribe here. But I’ll look forward to reading and responding to the discussion on translat next week.
Sean Golden, Dean, Facultat de Traduccio Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona
08193 Bellaterra, BARCELONA, Spain
Tel: 34 3 5811374 FAX: 34 3 5811037
e-mail: sgolden@cc.uab.es
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:07:16 +0000
From: iuts2@cc.uab.es (Doug Robinson)
Subject: Re: male sensitivity and male identities
(Almost) all signs to the contrary, the msg I snip below was from me, Doug. I told Eudora not to send Sean’s signature file, and she sent it anyway. Naming this e-mailer after Eudora Welty seems to have instilled her tricky devilish gleam-in-the-eye spirit in it. I’m very much looking forward to getting back to my home acct, which is, like Welty, a Mississippian. Maybe she won’t be so inclined to play tricks with my identity there!
>Catching the tail end of the transfer-l discussion on the fly here, on brief stops between lectures at Spanish TS programs …
Doug
And if a Seanish .sig appears here below, I do hereby abjure it to vanish into the virtual mist from whence it emerged.
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:55:23 +0000
From: sgolden@cc.uab.es (Sean Golden)
Subject: Post-Colloquium
Having let a few days go by to see whether or not last minute postings would arrive, and seeing that the messages that are now arriving could develop into a new discussion. I second the proposal by Anthony Pym that this new discussion move to TRANSLAT, at least for the time being.
I will be closing down TRANSFER-L as of 21 March, and I will post the messages that have arrived by that
Date on a “Post-Colloquium” Web page at the on-line colloquium site. I will leave the on-line colloquium site on-line for a longer period of time, and will eventually store it somewhere else.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has replied to me personally with their kind words about the experiment and with their helpful suggestions for the future.
Sean Golden, Dean, Facultat de Traduccio Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona
08193 Bellaterra, BARCELONA, Spain
Tel: 34 3 5811374 FAX: 34 3 5811037
e-mail: sgolden@cc.uab.es
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:04:52 +1000
From: E.Valverde@mailbox.uq.oz.au (Estela Valverde)
Subject: Hasta pronto
I would like to formally thank Sean, Tony and Doug especially for organising a very stimulating debate and all the other participants for their contribution to enrich TS. The debate not only gave me the opportunity to rethink many of the issues I try to teach but also allowed me to catch up with old friends and make new ones. I sincerely hope the momentum will not be lost, that this small global network can find an outlet for a prolongued and less racy dialogue and that what we have learnt in this first experience will be used as the basis for future improvements. Let it be then “hasta pronto” from Australia! Warm regards, Estela
A/Prof. Estela Valverde
Coordinator of Spanish
Dept. of Romance Languages
The University of Queensland
St. Lucia Qld. 4072
Australia
Fax: (61-7) 3365 2798
Telephone: (61-7) 3365 2277
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:11:53 -0300 (GRNLNDST)
From: John Milton <jmilton@usp.br>
Subject: Re: male sensitivity
Luise and others:
I think “political correctness”is already a part of translation practice. I found a Portuguese translation of Oliver Twist in which Fagin was referred to as “o velho” (the old man) rather than “the Jew”, presumably to avoid a “racist” translation. The English translation of Vargas Llosa’s La Ciudad y los Perros toned down the banter and insults of the cadets when they referred to the black cadet. The n-word “nigger” was never used.
Do we not avoid racist and sexist language today as much as sexual references were avoided a few years ago?
John Milton, Sao Paulo.
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:34:25 -0500 (EST)
From: vonfloto@aix1.uottawa.ca
Subject: Re: Political correctness
John, regarding “political correctness”. Of course people ‘clean up’ translations – for lots of reasons, some of which they couldn’t even explain.
My point was that the term itself and the snide way it is used began as a backlash from the right which objected to marginals of whatever kind making moves to take up more space, become more visible or be otherwise recognized.
Through the introduction and expansion of the term, it has become considerably easier to make fun of and downplay the aspirations of such marginals as well as those who might want to support them.
I was in Germany in 1991 when the term was just making its way across the Atlantic. It was interesting to watch it being reported upon extensively by various media, with analyses of the writings of De Sousa and the like, and being gleefully snapped up for use against anyone who might want to stick out of the ‘soup of consensus’.
The interview between Sharon Bell and Francoise Massardier-Kenney in “Translating Slavery” (Kent State Press, 1994 or 1995) reveals a number of the resaons translators might have for changing a text.
Take care and greetings to the colloquium, should it still exist.
Luise von Flotow
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:06:42 -1000
From: Marcella Alohalani Boido <mboido@hawaii.edu>
Subject: Heinlein, etc.
On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Deborah D K Ruuskanen wrote:
AAAs to some of the awful cliches bandied about, well, if the translation
iis female and the translator male (as Tony and Doug seemed to have -perhaps subconsciously- assumed), and no translation can be both faithful and beautiful <shudder, eyes closed in disapprobriation), well, you can turn it around and say that male translators have sometimes been accused of prostituting their art. And besides, for professional translators, sometimes quick and dirty is the only way to go (e.g. the “working texts” for opera singers) – and as Robert Heinlein once said, sometimes the ugly ones are the best in bed. Thanks again guys.
>Cheers, Kela
I don’t recognize this particular Heinlein quote. I do remember that he said that all the best ones bite.
More applicable to this discussion, however, was his comment that you should always leave something for an editor to change. After they pee in it, they like the flavor better.
Cheers,
Alohalani